I didn’t know that it was anything to do with what they are fed. I’ve never known a dog give up the habit once it is ingrained, and considered it a behavioural issue although I have heard that some consider it to be due to pica, in which case diet may be relevant. Wizoz feeds kelp to one of hers and says it does help.
I can only say I personally am very susceptible to stomach bugs and food poisoning, I can go down with norvovirus just being in the same room as someone with it. which was not fun back when I was nursing. However I’ve not once been unwell as a result of feeding raw food in general to my dogs including raw minces/chicken carcass and green tripe. I do appreciate that doesn’t allay your concerns about feeding raw around a toddler though.
Jonathan Self mentions contamination in his “Honey’s Natural Feeding Handbook”. Have a look at their website too as it has lots of information on it. He says
"What chance is there of a human catching salmonella from a dog? Dogs do not carry salmonella in their saliva or on their skin not even after eating 100% salmonella-infected raw food. But when they do eat salmonella infected food about one third of them will show a moderate concentration of salmonella in their faeces yet show no clinical signs of being sick. The only way a human can catch salmonella from a dog is by, to put it bluntly, eating its you know what! Incidentally dogs eating a processed food diet are just as likely to have salmonella in their system as it is easy to pick up in parks and elsewhere. "
Raw certainly doesn’t suit all dogs. Of my 3 only one does really well on it . The two pointers are not overly keen on raw minces so they are back on a kibble (Millies Wolfheart). My rottie’s teeth have not improved from eating raw bones although her behaviour is much better on it. My 3 all gained too much weight on it but many others I know of lose weight on it so I think its a case of try it and see but be prepared to change back if it doesn’t suit.
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Hi, I had the same problems with my Working Cocker Spaniel I did some research and I tried Markus Muhle Natural dog food it worked for him but not my other 2 cockers. Read the reviews on this site and let me know how you get on. (I am starting my own thread about raw feeding and poo eating). Hope you get sorted.
This thread goes to the heart of pet keeping. Listening to the warning about the real risk of antibiotic resistance it seems to me that we must increase our use of other approaches. Not being exposed to a certain amount of bacteria etc. now seems one of the most important factors behind increasing allergies. Personally I was going to sue my mum for keeping me too clean! Seriously though, you can reduce the danger of salmonella etc, one option is to avoid poultry and go for lamb if you can. I use my utility sink for raw chicken and the dogs eat it there or in garden, I have a bottle of hibiscrub hand wash as I have donkeys too and I spot clean the floor with it after. Beef I prepare like I would for us and I am happy but I would not be with a toddler but then I am not sure my flagstone floors are very sanitary anyway. My dogs often take pieces out of the bowl so the floor is the real area of contamination risk. The US is introducing laws requiring raw pet food be pasteurised and it may come here. Raw, non poultry, minced products plus good separation of feeding area and human food prep and cleaning the floor would probably make your dog food of less risk than sausage rolls at the church fete.
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I have slightly changed the title of this thread to more accurately represent the subject and content. There are some interesting posts and it was good to re read it although I am still no wiser as to whether it is safe or not, particularly in the presence of vulnerable persons. I think that much depends upon the domestic situation and as we all know, that can vary quite a lot.
Unfortunately the OP of this thread did not return to it to let us know the outcome of their deliberations re the pros and cons of feeding a raw diet with a toddler in the house. Since the thread was started, I made some more enquiries from staff at one of the complete raw meal companies and was reassured re risks of infection - link.
If anyone is concerned about the risk of infection, particularly with vulnerable people in the house, it might be worth considering the use of good quality, raw complete food from one of the established companies. The standards that are in place and the fact that the products need very little handling could minimize any risk. Discussing the matter with the company staff beforehand would also be useful.
There is plenty of advice on the Internet about how to handle and use raw food safely.
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Thanks for taking time to add this info to this older thread.
Other than the bowl hygiene issues post feeding I dont see any major differences than common sense precuations one would take when handling meat used for human meals.
I wouldn’t handle raw meat ingredients & immediately handle a toddler without washing my hands & I wouldn’t knowingly feed rancid meat to family or dogs.
Cooking a traditional sunday roast, putting meat on a barbecue presents similar health hazards.
Handling dog faeces comes with some risk whatever the pre digested food source.
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The risk of transmission of infection to humans from dogs who are raw fed was discussed on the BBC2 programme Trust Me, I’m A Vet last night. The Laboratory experiments that were done by microbiologists showed that bacteria was present in the raw meat that they had sourced. Of note was campylobacter and E.coli. Worryingly, the strains were ones that are becoming resistant to antibiotics.
Although good kitchen hygiene goes a long way to minimising the risk, it was pointed out that the bacteria can live in and on the dog’s mouth making transmission possible when the dog licks. Possibly dogs who drool might be more of a problem to humans. Bacteria was present in the stool so presumably lives around the anus too, particularly with hairy dogs.
Whether or not the risk is worth taking is an individual matter of choice. In the absence of accurate figures, it is difficult to say how much of a risk it is. The companies who sell raw dog food will probably do all they can to reassure the public. However, I do wonder if they should consider giving separate guidance to people whose dogs live in close proximity to vulnerable people. Thinking of babies/ children, elderly, ill and immunosuppressed people. Any one of these diseases could be extremely serious in such people. Tiny children in particular cannot be expected to remember to wash their hands after handling the dog or if the dog has licked them.
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To add some balance there is an article on risks below courtesy of another website.
It is useful to have alternative views, though it does make the issue confusing. The owner of the website is a “huge raw feeding fan” but cannot see anything about qualifications. He does reference the article but the links don’t seem to be working. I don’t feel particularly reassured by what he has to say but then I was swayed by the fact that the programme used highly qualified, scientific people to make their point.
The one thing that people don’t take into account is that there are often large variations in domestic hygiene standards. Some people have spotless homes, some live in squalor. It’s easy to see where the greatest risk lies, particulate if raw food is left out.
It’s difficult to know what to believe but my feeling is that if someone has the slightest doubt about the safety issues of raw feeding, then perhaps it is best not to bother. Dogs don’t have to be raw fed - they can live, and thrive on other products.
Dottie,
I suspect that the two of us might not agree on this subject.
The first two links referenced in that article can be cut and pasted into browser bar to access.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1716752/
The 3rd link does not work but a google search on content took me to the following
https://rawdogfood.co/episode4/
I have spoken to and met enough raw feeders so as not to have concerns re sensible sourcing, storage, handling & feeding of raw dog food.
I accept hat handling uncooked meat presents a risk, however, plenty of households cook meals from scratch using raw meat to start with. Every household in the UK where a Sunday roast is prepared arguably carries a risk to humans. Lasagne from scratch can involve handing raw beef mince, chicken casserole involves handling raw chicken etc etc. For years fami!y cooks have been handling raw meat.
As highlighted…Hygiene is of course a factor If dirty utensils go unwashed, dirty bowls are left in the sun then there will be an increase of risk(s).
This summer thousands of households will have garden barbecues, raw mince beefburgers, lamb ribs, raw chicken cubes etc etc will all be handled, raw meat juices dripping everywhere, dirty tea towels, greasy dirty hands and even food dropped on floor and picked up. Few will die from this &, hopefully, risks of infection will be reduced by sensible consideration of basic hygiene.
I would not buy warm raw meat with flies on it from a warm butchers shop on a hot sunny day then leave it on a sideboard to prepare later.
If sourcing raw complete dog food I buy quality products which come direct from trusted suppliers or their retailers. I ensure food is frozen on arrival & stays frozen until carefully defrosted for minimal time required. I do not mix dog food with human food.
The following guidance is cut & pasted from the website of one of the trusted raw complete suppliers I use…
“Always use separate utensils for raw meat and cooked foods;
Keep raw meat covered and store it at the bottom of the fridge;
Open and dispose of packaging carefully;
Wash and dry your hands thoroughly after handling raw meat;
Always wash your pet’s food bowl in hot soapy water after each meal;
Never leave raw meat where it can become warm - always defrost somewhere cool or in the fridge overnight”
I can keep coming back, cutting & pasting more links, more articles, positive testimonials from raw feeders, comments from those who know far more than me on the subject.
If human bacteria poisoning risk from direct or indirect contact with raw meat is such a genuine issue then I would advise all genuinely concerned to do all or some of the following…
- Consider avoiding BBQ events.
- Stop handling any raw meat in the home…Sorry no bacon sandwiches to be prepared unless gloves worn !
- Don’t eat in eating establishments that handle raw meat…Are your chefs hands always clean ?
- Consider turning vegetarian or vegan.
I genuinely feel dogs are normally capable of dealing with higher levels of bacteria than humans…I have seen dogs eat, sniff & lick a multitude of disgusting things when out on walks. I am confident I do not need to go into further detail here to make this point ! Yes dogs can make themselves poorly if they eat dire things, however, I do not consider well sourced, stored & prepared quality raw complete products to be “dire things”
I am not aware of multiple dogs sensibly fed quality raw meals being rushed to my current vet…one who incidentally happens to sell not only quality kibble but also quality raw complete dog food (from the practice reception area).
I hope the above comments adds some context & clarify my views on this subject.
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[shadow=beige,left]Is raw feeding a risk to humans?[/shadow]
Yes, indeed there is a risk which needs thoughtful addressing and assessing whilst taking into account others (including other pets) who may be affected by our decision on whether or not to feed raw food to a dog.
However, clearly there is the likelihood of human contact with potentially harmful pathogens increasing when feeding raw food to dogs, compared with feeding food that has been through a production process to eliminate pathogens, such as heating, high pressure processing or freezing.
Might I comment on the question of how low or high this risk is, should certainly, first and foremost, be an individual decision to make, reliant on a whole host of personal variables.
There also should be a consideration of the current health of the dog before feeding raw meat. If there is any delay of food in the digestive system then a dog has longer exposure (with increased risk) to bacteria present in raw meat, which then incubate and multiply. So for example gastroenteritis, vomiting, diarrhoea, or constipation are all conditions when a dog should not be fed raw meat.
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Hello Coaster - the fact that he didn’t hyperlink the references made me think it was a bit of lazy journalism. I didn’t cut and paste them because I was a bit pushed for time so I am sorry, but I didn’t read them. :-[ Maybe I will look at them later. Your post is useful and provides a balanced argument for anyone who is thinking of raw feeding and is concerned about infection.
I agree with Meg’s comment on people doing their own research and making a decision based on their personal situation.
As you say, following company guidelines on safe use will minimize any risk. I just think that the circumstances of people should be taken into account. The risk for a healthy young person with good hygiene standards is going to be less than a vulnerable person who maybe forgets, or finds it difficult to maintain good hygiene.
This thread was started by someone who was asking about the risk of raw feeding their dog because she had young children. I am not sure it is worth risking the health of certain groups of people e.g. babies/children/pregnant women/elderly/ill people/immunocompromised/those who have medical implants but it is for each individual to make up their own mind. If anyone is in one of these categories and is unsure they can always discuss the matter with their own general practitioner and/or veterinary surgeon.
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Perhaps it may be helpful to mention there is a different degree of risk if feeding a pre-packaged raw meat complete meal to feeding fresh raw meat to a dog.
As there is also a different degree of risk to consider if a dog would be content to eat raw food entirely in a bowl to a dog that drags it’s raw meat from place to place…
I’ve experienced a commonplace reaction from dogs who enjoy dragging a hunk of raw into their place of choice, which is really no less than I’d expect. Just where that area is would need to be carefully thought through as I’d not want to risk anyone (particularly the more vulnerable) to exposure of raw meat entrails.
[Please don’t think I’m anti-raw feeding, not at all, as I happily feed raw as one of many dog diets]
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Some useful points there. I too would just like to say that I am not anti raw feeding; it is just about weighing up pros and cons beforehand, based on the owner’s situation.
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I had to think long and hard about the bacteria issue. I personally think that as long as basic food hygiene guidelines are used, which should apply to handling raw meat for humans too. The risk is significantly reduced.
I agree there are many variables. I have seen people post to facebook groups with pictures of dogs dragging bones along on the carpet and tucking in to them on their beds. A cross contamination nightmare! I can’t help thinking that a lack of knowledge about food hygiene is a big contributing factor in incidents of infection.
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Thanks for the further replies…
We never feed the dogs in the kitchen - only in rear porch or outdoors. If we had young kids in here I would feed outdoors only…Plenty of humans need to take care with raw human food too. Arguably raw complete minces in trays can need less human contact than needed if preparing a family roast.
If risk to small children could not be managed appropriately I would probably feed cold pressed or if later more cost effective, air or freeze dried.
I am mindful my post was somewhat defensive but I wanted to add some balance whilst commenting from my perspective…thanks to members for clarifying stance on responsible raw feeding.
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Just to explain further…
I felt it was important to raise awareness of the differing degrees of risks inherent with the differing interpretations of what feeding raw meat to dogs means to different people.
It is crucial to stress that feeding raw meat to a dog covers the spectrum of feeding from a plastic tub with little, if any, (human) contact with its raw contents, through to (human) handling of raw dripping offal, hearts, cutting into, chopping up, etc.
The risks vary absolutely, and are naturally influenced greatly by whereabouts on the spectrum of these ‘extremes’ of feeding raw meat the feeder falls.
thanks to members for clarifying stance on responsible raw feeding
Might it be useful to start a thread on responsible raw feeding?
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Coaster - your post wasn’t defensive, you were just putting another point of view across and that is part of a healthy debate. The problem with raw feeding safety is that there are conflicting views.
Meg - having a thread about raw feeding safety is a good idea. I hardly know where to start though - it is a huge subject and there is a lot of information out there on the Internet already. Arguably, it needs to be divided into two areas, the first being food preparation, kitchen and utensil hygiene and second shedding of bacteria by the dog following a raw meat meal.
Following the BBC2 programme Natures Menu were quick to respond by putting this on their Facebook page. Perhaps predictably, it had a high number of responses, all praising their products. Interestingly, one of the posts was from a veterinary practice who criticized the piece but did not offer a scientific appraisal of the points raised, which was shedding of bacteria by the dog.
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As a member has pointed out it may be useful to move this discussion to this thread
So I will lock the topic.